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(Please read the whole thing before you instantly deny what I say.)
Well peeps, here comes another long-winded forum post. I've wanted to make something on this topic for awhile but never got around to making. PvP is a staple of TMD no matter how much you like it or hate it. For a long time we've worked on making it balanced. Why have we had to work so hard, though? Is balance really that hard to achieve?
To go in depth about the concept of "Balance" I'm going to pull in Super Smash Bros. (I know, I'm obsessed.) Smash has had a problem with balance in the past. Smash Bros 64 (the 1st game) had it down pretty good, but Melee (2nd) was made quickly, with less concern for balance and more-so for just simply completing characters. If you follow competitive Melee you'll find that about half the cast is so bad they're unviable in contests and only about 5 ever see wins at tourneys (Fox, Jigglypuff, Falco, etc). Brawl (3rd) was a joke of a game, with Meta Knight being only the real viable character. His attacks are much faster than anyone else, his groundspeed beats out everyone but Sonic, and he can FLY on a platform-based fighting game, making him impossible to kill off the Bottom. But Smash 4 on the 3DS/WiiU is probably the most balanced Smash game. But why? Some characters can still essentially fly (Bayonetta) and some can kill in one hit (Ganondorf), so why is it balanced?
We can chalk this up to class-types. Most characters fit into one of many classes, and their Strength, Speed, and Durability are different per class.
Glass Cannon - Heavy hits, moderate speed, but die really easy (Little Mac, Mewtwo)
Stone Wall - Hit relatively light, but they don't die very easily. (Shulk in Shield Monado)
Heavy - Take a beating and deal lots of damage, but are so slow they are easy to hit (DK, Bowser, Ike).
Light - Fast speed but hit light and die easy (Game & Watch, Sonic, Jigglypuff)
Zoning- Have moves that hit for long distances but struggle when someone gets up close (Corrin, Link, Zelda)
Flyer - Someone who fights fast in the air but is slow on the ground. (Kirby, Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
The thing about classes is that it allows for interesting matchups. A heavy can kill a light really really easy, but the light can run in circles around the heavy. A Glass Cannon can kill you really easy, but can die really easy as well. Zoning characters can be frustrating to approach, but once you get in they're toast. This comes with the concept of classes. For someone to have strengths they have weaknesses. This is why Brawl's Meta Knight was so good, he didn't really have any weaknesses. He had the movement of a light but the attack speed and damage of a glass cannon, even though he had the durability of a Stone Wall with the aerial mobility of a Flyer. There problem was reversed for Brawl's Ganondorf. He hit you SO hard, but was so slow he could hardly land any shots. He had to many weaknesses that his one strength couldn't make up for.
Back to TMD. Now. PvP here isn't like a Fighting game. There's no multi-character select, so there's no real "classes". This would naturally lead to a even playing field, right? I mean, the best way to see who's the best at Smash between 2 people is give them a ditto match. Have them play the same person. TMD should be instantly be balanced, right? Wrong. Its a loot-based combat system. There are defined "best" items, and anyone who isn't using them gets beat out.
But surely this can't mean PvP can't balanced. Let's work with considered the best PvP loadout. Juggernaut gear with a Katana, Golden Barrett, Gat, Pains/Medkits. What are the strengths? Let's apply them to the classes mentioned earlier. The Jugg gives the person the Durability of a Heavy without making them suffer on the speed department. Their weapons give them options at both range and close up, making for no real reward if you try to approach them OR stay at distance. The pains give an option for healing what little damage they receive, making their durability even higher. What we have is a Heavy with the mobility of a Light and the power of a Glass Cannon... and they can put Range-style pressure but it gets even worse when you approach. There are no real weaknesses. Now... in a Jugg vs Jugg 1v1 this isn't a problem. We have a ditto situation. Footing is even and it comes down to skill and patience.
But like I said... there's no weaknesses. If you tried to apply the class concept you'll see the problem. Let's add a Sniper class. The class would have a Zoning style - mass damage at distance but weak once it gets close. We could add a Gunner - Someone with high damage and high rate of fire but no armor... a Glass Cannon. Now lets add a Runner - Someone with low power but high speed - a light. We could also add a Medic, they can heal a lot but cannot deal a lot of damage themselves - a Stone Wall. How do they stack up? Well, the jugg can kill the sniper by approaching quickly or leave by running and healing. Gunner can apply lots of pressure but once they have to reload or if the jugg gets an opening they die very quickly. The runner is going to be hard to catch but the jugg cant really die... the runner doesn't have the power to make it happen. The jugg just has to catch him at the right moment. The Medic would take a long time to kill but has a similar problem to the runner... they can't deal enough return damage. If you want the dictionary definition of Balance it is as follows: "an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady" - or "a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions." If a jugg has no real weaknesses, than its UNbalanced.
Back to the Smash comparison. Smash 4 Bayonetta is considered to be unbalanced... but not everyone plays her. She still has weaknesses.This is where a next level beyond un-balance comes into play. Brawl Meta Knight - having no weaknesses - is considered to be broken.
In video games, something that is "broken" is: "Something that is so overpowered, that it makes all other options look terrible." Brawl Meta Knight has no bad matchups. All other options suck when versing him. And as I demonstrated earlier... the Jugg Class had the same problem.
So I'm going to start wrapping this up. This is why I burn jugg. I don't sell it, I don't use it, I throw it into a fire at Mallow or Travelier. It's BROKEN. If someone decides ANYTHING but the best loadout of jugg/pains, there's no counterplay. Either you lose or become part of the problem. Now, I will admit, Juggs CAN be killed by riots. But Ganondorfs CAN kill Meta Knights - If the Ganon is really good and the Meta Knight is really bad.... or maybe the Meta Knight made a mistake somewhere. Everything I've discussed is if everyone's playing at peak performance. If a jugg is always on their toes riots cant get the upperhand. Ever. If jugs had some debuffs like lower speed or lower damage on weapons... maybe we'd have balance. It could still be GOOD, but not broken. Give it weaknesses. Something. But Jugg has a psychological effect on people i'll discuss in a later thread. Long story short, I know Jugg wont come with debuffs. Which means it'll stay without weaknesses.
For these reasons...
TMD PvP simply cannot be balanced.
I'm sorry.
Thank you, and goodnight.
Well peeps, here comes another long-winded forum post. I've wanted to make something on this topic for awhile but never got around to making. PvP is a staple of TMD no matter how much you like it or hate it. For a long time we've worked on making it balanced. Why have we had to work so hard, though? Is balance really that hard to achieve?
To go in depth about the concept of "Balance" I'm going to pull in Super Smash Bros. (I know, I'm obsessed.) Smash has had a problem with balance in the past. Smash Bros 64 (the 1st game) had it down pretty good, but Melee (2nd) was made quickly, with less concern for balance and more-so for just simply completing characters. If you follow competitive Melee you'll find that about half the cast is so bad they're unviable in contests and only about 5 ever see wins at tourneys (Fox, Jigglypuff, Falco, etc). Brawl (3rd) was a joke of a game, with Meta Knight being only the real viable character. His attacks are much faster than anyone else, his groundspeed beats out everyone but Sonic, and he can FLY on a platform-based fighting game, making him impossible to kill off the Bottom. But Smash 4 on the 3DS/WiiU is probably the most balanced Smash game. But why? Some characters can still essentially fly (Bayonetta) and some can kill in one hit (Ganondorf), so why is it balanced?
We can chalk this up to class-types. Most characters fit into one of many classes, and their Strength, Speed, and Durability are different per class.
Glass Cannon - Heavy hits, moderate speed, but die really easy (Little Mac, Mewtwo)
Stone Wall - Hit relatively light, but they don't die very easily. (Shulk in Shield Monado)
Heavy - Take a beating and deal lots of damage, but are so slow they are easy to hit (DK, Bowser, Ike).
Light - Fast speed but hit light and die easy (Game & Watch, Sonic, Jigglypuff)
Zoning- Have moves that hit for long distances but struggle when someone gets up close (Corrin, Link, Zelda)
Flyer - Someone who fights fast in the air but is slow on the ground. (Kirby, Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
The thing about classes is that it allows for interesting matchups. A heavy can kill a light really really easy, but the light can run in circles around the heavy. A Glass Cannon can kill you really easy, but can die really easy as well. Zoning characters can be frustrating to approach, but once you get in they're toast. This comes with the concept of classes. For someone to have strengths they have weaknesses. This is why Brawl's Meta Knight was so good, he didn't really have any weaknesses. He had the movement of a light but the attack speed and damage of a glass cannon, even though he had the durability of a Stone Wall with the aerial mobility of a Flyer. There problem was reversed for Brawl's Ganondorf. He hit you SO hard, but was so slow he could hardly land any shots. He had to many weaknesses that his one strength couldn't make up for.
Back to TMD. Now. PvP here isn't like a Fighting game. There's no multi-character select, so there's no real "classes". This would naturally lead to a even playing field, right? I mean, the best way to see who's the best at Smash between 2 people is give them a ditto match. Have them play the same person. TMD should be instantly be balanced, right? Wrong. Its a loot-based combat system. There are defined "best" items, and anyone who isn't using them gets beat out.
But surely this can't mean PvP can't balanced. Let's work with considered the best PvP loadout. Juggernaut gear with a Katana, Golden Barrett, Gat, Pains/Medkits. What are the strengths? Let's apply them to the classes mentioned earlier. The Jugg gives the person the Durability of a Heavy without making them suffer on the speed department. Their weapons give them options at both range and close up, making for no real reward if you try to approach them OR stay at distance. The pains give an option for healing what little damage they receive, making their durability even higher. What we have is a Heavy with the mobility of a Light and the power of a Glass Cannon... and they can put Range-style pressure but it gets even worse when you approach. There are no real weaknesses. Now... in a Jugg vs Jugg 1v1 this isn't a problem. We have a ditto situation. Footing is even and it comes down to skill and patience.
But like I said... there's no weaknesses. If you tried to apply the class concept you'll see the problem. Let's add a Sniper class. The class would have a Zoning style - mass damage at distance but weak once it gets close. We could add a Gunner - Someone with high damage and high rate of fire but no armor... a Glass Cannon. Now lets add a Runner - Someone with low power but high speed - a light. We could also add a Medic, they can heal a lot but cannot deal a lot of damage themselves - a Stone Wall. How do they stack up? Well, the jugg can kill the sniper by approaching quickly or leave by running and healing. Gunner can apply lots of pressure but once they have to reload or if the jugg gets an opening they die very quickly. The runner is going to be hard to catch but the jugg cant really die... the runner doesn't have the power to make it happen. The jugg just has to catch him at the right moment. The Medic would take a long time to kill but has a similar problem to the runner... they can't deal enough return damage. If you want the dictionary definition of Balance it is as follows: "an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady" - or "a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions." If a jugg has no real weaknesses, than its UNbalanced.
Back to the Smash comparison. Smash 4 Bayonetta is considered to be unbalanced... but not everyone plays her. She still has weaknesses.This is where a next level beyond un-balance comes into play. Brawl Meta Knight - having no weaknesses - is considered to be broken.
In video games, something that is "broken" is: "Something that is so overpowered, that it makes all other options look terrible." Brawl Meta Knight has no bad matchups. All other options suck when versing him. And as I demonstrated earlier... the Jugg Class had the same problem.
So I'm going to start wrapping this up. This is why I burn jugg. I don't sell it, I don't use it, I throw it into a fire at Mallow or Travelier. It's BROKEN. If someone decides ANYTHING but the best loadout of jugg/pains, there's no counterplay. Either you lose or become part of the problem. Now, I will admit, Juggs CAN be killed by riots. But Ganondorfs CAN kill Meta Knights - If the Ganon is really good and the Meta Knight is really bad.... or maybe the Meta Knight made a mistake somewhere. Everything I've discussed is if everyone's playing at peak performance. If a jugg is always on their toes riots cant get the upperhand. Ever. If jugs had some debuffs like lower speed or lower damage on weapons... maybe we'd have balance. It could still be GOOD, but not broken. Give it weaknesses. Something. But Jugg has a psychological effect on people i'll discuss in a later thread. Long story short, I know Jugg wont come with debuffs. Which means it'll stay without weaknesses.
For these reasons...
TMD PvP simply cannot be balanced.
I'm sorry.
Thank you, and goodnight.
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